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The area of fintech that has been in the news most so far this year is, without doubt, banking as a service (BaaS). We have seen consent orders, layoffs, banks ending fintech programs, ongoing disputes between BaaS companies and fintechs and there have been pivots from some of the BaaS providers.
My next guest on the Fintech One-on-One podcast is Chris Dean, the CEO and Co-Founder of Treasury Prime. They were one of the original BaaS providers and have recently announced a pivot to working directly with banks. This resulted in the layoff of around half of the company. We do a deep dive into this pivot during our conversation, which took place live at the recent Fintech Meetup in Las Vegas.
In this podcast you will learn:
- How his experience at Silicon Valley Bank led to the founding of Treasury Prime.
- Their original three lines of business.
- The driving force behind their pivot to dealing with banks directly.
- The reaction they have received from their fintech clients.
- How their direct service works for banks.
- Why banks will continue to want to partner with fintechs.
- Details of the process they go through when onboarding a new bank.
- The different ways that are working with banks today.
- Why Chris thinks the original banking as a service model is dead.
- Why banks have been universally positive on their recent pivot.
- How involved they are with the fintech sales process at the bank.
- The impact on the fintech startup scene of banks only wanting to work with established fintechs.
- Their approach to compliance automation.
- Why he never sees the alternative core banking providers.
- How Chris sees the bank-fintech partnerships evolving in the long term.
- How he defines success going forward.
Read a transcription of our conversation below.
Peter Renton 00:01
Welcome to the Fintech One-on-One podcast. This is Peter Renton, Chairman and co-founder of Fintech Nexus. I’ve been doing this show since 2013, which makes this the longest running one-on-one interview show in all of fintech. Thank you so much for joining me on this journey.
Peter Renton 00:27
Before we get started, I want to highlight another podcast that I always listen to. Fintech Takes by Alex Johnson should definitely be on your fintech playlist. Alex is personable, a great interviewer, and one of the smartest people in all of fintech. I love his regular features like the Not Investment Advice shows he does with Simon Taylor, his monthly recaps with Jason Mikula. His deep dive shows with Kiah Haslett, and the top notch guests he has on the show from time to time. Check out Fintech Takes on your favorite podcast platform.
Peter Renton 01:04
This is the first in a series of three interviews that I recorded at fintech meet up in Las Vegas in early March. I’m delighted to welcome the CEO and co-founder of Treasury Prime, Chris Dean to the show. Now as you’ve probably heard, Treasury Prime went through, were in the news a lot in the last couple of weeks, with the announcement of the pivot away from being an intermediary in banking as a service to more of a SaaS, software provider to banks. Now, Chris is very open about this pivot, we talk about it in a lot of depth. And he talks about the fact that they had to let go some of the people in their business, which was a shame, but we also go into some depth about the whole kind of banking as a service landscape and embedded finance, you know he talks about what it’s like with the regulatory environment the way it is today. And he also talks about his vision for the future of embedded finance. It was a fascinating discussion. Hope you enjoy the show.
Peter Renton 02:13
Welcome to the podcast, Chris.
Chris Dean 02:15
Thank you. My pleasure.
Peter Renton 02:16
Okay, well, let’s let’s kick it off by giving the listeners a little bit of background about yourself. Hit on some of the high points of your career before Treasury Prime.
Chris Dean 02:25
Right, so Jim and I founded Treasury Prime a while ago. Before then, we ran the fintech group at Silicon Valley Bank. And we got there in the strange way that they bought our last company, which was called Standard Treasury. And that was my first introduction to banking, like, seven, eight years ago now. And I didn’t, I had a bank account, I didn’t know what that was. I didn’t know how they worked. My investment strategy was S&P 500. And I don’t know I’m done. And it was really eye opening and I loved it, because before then I had been the hardcore tech guy. I was a machine learning researcher, I founded multiple startups, in you know, San Francisco, we sold those for a good amount of money. And I was always the tech person in the room. And I discovered a crazy thing when I was at Silicon Valley Bank. I really liked banking. And does that make any sense? It does not. But it is true.
Peter Renton 03:16
No, I like it, too. And I didn’t know that about myself either.
Chris Dean 03:19
Yeah, for someone who’s written, you know, however, many millions and zillions lines of code and like, spent all day doing math equations for a career, finding out the banking is just as interesting was a shock.
Peter Renton 03:30
Right, okay. So then, what was the impetus? What was the, tell us the founding story of Treasury Prime?
Chris Dean 03:37
Sure, we were running the fintech group at Silicon Valley Bank, like I said, and the product market fit was the best I’d personally ever seen. That the good high quality fintechs that banked at Silicon Valley Bank were asking for specific technical things they could do at the bank. They were fintechs. And I had a platform which powered that. And those were my clients, and that grew it in crazy good. But when we looked at the market and said, you know, we should do this as a business. I said, well, the challenge here is that we couldn’t find a business model that would work. There was people weren’t that, right then they were saying we can disintermediate the bank and just like, pretend to be a bank without a charter. And we didn’t think that would work because I talked to a regulator and they, you know, almost had a heart attack at the very idea. And we came up with our pretty complicated model that we have now that works. But it was a path where we build a tech platform, we find the best banks, we turn the tech platform on the best banks, fintechs go live at those, and we just repeat that process. And our estimate back then was a single bank in a year will do about 12 deals. So if we want to do 100 deals a year total, then guess how many you need? You need eight or nine banks just to do that.
Peter Renton 04:55
Right.
Chris Dean 04:55
And you know, it ends up that we were maybe over optimistic of the number of deals the banks will do. So we became that, we built a good team, we, you know, raised a good amount of money from the best investors. And here we are, things are going well. We had a recent pivot, but that was part of the overall strategy.
Peter Renton 05:12
Right. Right. Okay, so let’s get right into it then with, with the pivot that was announced a few days ago, as we’re recording this, obviously we’re at Fintech Meetup. Explain the thinking behind the pivot. Before you even get to that, explain sort of the, you know, how you had set up the business originally, and then why pivot?
Chris Dean 05:31
Sure, we’ve always had three lines of business. Which is odd for a start up, because you only have one, but we’ve always had three. The first one is partnerships. And that’s a small, small part of it, where people, we have access to a lot of banks, so people want to use our tech to access those banks. The second one was banks doing their own direct deals, but they want to use our platform to handle the governance and the management of the fintechs, which is what the softwares does. And the third was us finding fintechs with our whole go to market team, and then bringing those to banks, and helping the banks close them. That was especially useful for a bank who was just getting into fintech. And we ended up over the past two or three years, that being the majority of the company doing that.
Peter Renton 06:16
Right.
Chris Dean 06:17
But not the majority of that. Maybe not the majority of the interesting activity, but the majority of our, you know, day to day work.
Peter Renton 06:24
Right. So then what was the driving force then behind the pivot?
Chris Dean 06:29
Treasury Prime is in a unique position here, where we sit and we talk to lots of banks, and we talk to lots of fintechs. And once in a while we’ll talk to a regulator. They don’t, you know they’re harder to talk to. And over time, our bank started asking us to say, we just want to do this deal ourselves directly. Can we do that? Is that allowed? Not only is that allowed, that’s preferred. We do this go to market motion for you, because that’s what you needed to get started. They said, Okay, understood, but we’re just going to close our own deals, right now. We’re going to source some of them, if you bring us deals, we’ll gladly take them, but we want to close them ourselves, on our economics and our contract, our paper.
Peter Renton 07:08
Right.
Chris Dean 07:09
And we did that for a lot of folks. And our role is still the same for the rest of the problem. We still help the bank with implementation. We still are the tech partner here. That all works. But when enough banks asked for it, at some point I realized, well, that’s what we want to do anyway, so why don’t we just do it?
Peter Renton 07:27
Right, right, okay. So then really, obviously the banking as a service space has a lot of regulatory attention right now, there’s been some high profile, you know, consent orders and things that are impacting fintechs.
Chris Dean 07:41
Right, more coming. They’re not going to be pleasant.
Peter Renton 07:44
Right. So is it fair to say that that wasn’t the driving force here, it was really the market demand rather than the regulatory kind of attention?
Chris Dean 07:52
They’re coupled. A part of the reason that the banks wanted to deal with themselves, deal directly, is because that is something that the regulators are more comfortable, right?
Peter Renton 08:02
Right.
Chris Dean 08:02
It’s always been Treasury Prime’s position that the bank is the ownership of this relation. They’re the one with the charter, no one else is, and they have to, they cannot outsource that compliance model, they just can’t.
Peter Renton 08:13
Right.
Chris Dean 08:14
That’s always been our position. But the banks are coming and said look, we just want to close them ourselves, on our contract, the ultimate test of who’s the real client here is who’s paying the bills to who? Instead, if the fintech is paying the bank directly, then it is an easy argument to the regulators to say this is our client, not some intermediaries.
Peter Renton 08:36
Right, right. That makes sense. That makes sense. So I’m curious about reaction from the fintech clients that you have worked with as an intermediary. What’s been their reaction?
Chris Dean 08:48
Generally, extremely positive. There were a few panicked phone calls. I had a whole call sheet of everyone to call, which is a long, was a long calling day. Generally very receptive, because the ones who are live and working, say what’s different? Absolutely nothing’s different. We’re not turning anyone off. We’re just not. Any new deals we sign are going to be with the bank.
Peter Renton 09:08
Right.
Chris Dean 09:09
And the banks all love it. They all had the economic question of like, Oh, does this mean you’re in trouble? Because you laid off so many people, and I’m like, I laid off the people who were doing that work.
Peter Renton 09:21
Right.
Chris Dean 09:21
We don’t have the same need for a quota carrying account exec we had before. So I can’t repurpose them. And if you add it up, that’s a lot of Treasury Prime. And they are great people, but we let them go. And they all the banks now the fintechs said, understood, great. This is the right path going forward anyway, so thank you. Let’s go. Let’s move on. That’s what, over and over again, that’s been the conversation.
Peter Renton 09:45
Right. So I’m interested in the demand side here, which I haven’t really seen discussed in the media at all yet. And you mentioned that, you know, banks were coming to you. I mean, what’s your sense of demand for your software going into banks who want to do their own deals? Are you expecting this to be a real driver of growth now for you guys? I mean, let’s talk about the demand side.
Chris Dean 10:15
Oh, 100%. I mean we, what we do is, we find banks and banks find us, and we turn on our software at that bank. Generally, we’re very picky about the banks that we use, because the brand has, you know, we have to protect the brand here and make sure that there’s not some problem in the future. But once we close that, and help the bank turn on their first fintechs, that really works, it’s a very effective way for a community bank, for a $5 billion, $1 billion bank to find deposits. It’s a very effective way for them to find fee income, but mostly it’s around deposits, it’s a very, very effective way to do that. And they like that. And you know, some of our banks will have 20% in deposits, some people will have like 40%, in deposits from the fintechs. But that’s about where they land, you know, kind of those numbers.
Peter Renton 11:08
So, like, with all the attention that’s coming on, coming from bank regulators, are there new banks that are saying, Oh, this is a really good idea. Let me, let’s get into it. Even with that attention, you think there’s still banks that have never had a fintech partner? And they’re gonna go and jump in?
Chris Dean 11:24
Yeah. I’m telling you there’s people out there who are like, this is a good idea. You just have to do it right.
Chris Dean 11:31
I mean, I’m, we’re announcing one a new one. Was it next week or so. This is constant, it’s not changing. People are just wanting to be careful. The future, in my opinion, is that the tech firms have a lot of connection to the end user. And the banks have their role, and the tech companies have their role. Tech companies are great at product development, they’re great at marketing. You know what banks are good at? Banks are great at risk management, and banks are great at partnership relations. Like an RAM at my own bank, they’re great. And if everyone stays in their lane, and they can all make lots of money here, which is what the banks see.
Peter Renton 11:31
Right.
Chris Dean 12:07
So what’s involved when you get a new bank onboard? Do you have like a suite of software that you install? Take us through the implementation process at a new bank.
Chris Dean 12:21
Sure there’s the tech part and the not tech part, there’s a lot of training that goes on. We have a bank playbook we run on our banks through. And it’s what we see as, like, the best practices, it doesn’t have to be the way they do it. But it is the best practices and they can start there. And for the new banks that is really useful to know where to start, almost everyone veers off it after a while, but there’s a lot of training there. You know, our team meets with the, you know, the operations people, the compliance people to make sure everyone’s on board, because it is a cross departmental problem, that’s half the problem. The other half is technical, we integrate directly with at least one of their banking cores, the smaller banks typically only have one core. But the bigger ones have more than one. We do a direct real time integration there. So that we could do things like real time fund reconciliation, and things like that. Handle accounts actually on the core. And that works, that’s a lot of technical lift, we’re the best in the world at this thing. And once that’s live, we install our software on their systems to do that. We run software for them. We’ll do both those things. There’s an API and a control panel that they have. There’s a whole governance suite that the fintechs can see, there’s a whole governance suite that the banks can see. And when they look at that, they’re all looking at the underlying APIs that are driving all this business. So if someone opens a bank account, you can see how that worked. You can see how, you know, the KYC that ran with that, you can delve into it, any level of detail that you want, you can turn things on, turn things off. And that’s what the software provides.
Peter Renton 13:58
Right, right. So when banks come to you, are they coming with a specific fintech partner in mind originally, or are they just saying, we want to get into this and they need help in sort of finding fintechs?
Chris Dean 14:11
Both those things, I mean, there’s a category of people who are just brand new to it and want to do something, and that we do that. There’s people like, I have someone I either want to work with, or am working with. These I want to work with, but I don’t have the technology. And we don’t want to send flat files around all day. No one wants to do that. And how do we how do we handle governance, and what’s oversight, and what reporting do we have? And da-da-da-da-da. And we have tools for that. We also have banks who are like, I’m doing a lot of fintech work right now, and I am tired of, I need a professional platform to do it. And that’s what we are. We’re a professional platform to do it.
Peter Renton 14:49
Right. Gotcha. Okay. So then can we just take a step back and thinking about the banking as a service model that has evolved over the last decade you know, with intermediaries often between the bank and the fintech. Do you, is your theory that that model is dead?
Chris Dean 15:05
Yeah, I never thought this model worked. Like, when we were at SVB, that was the challenge here. We could have done a clone of synapse like you know, tomorrow, right? That was like trivial to do, I would look at that and say, that’s not going to work. Sooner or later, the bank’s gonna get in trouble. If you look at the problem as a bank’s gonna do five or 10 deals per year, if you look at it like that, then you can’t do this model where I’m going to have a bank, and I’m gonna do 100 deals per year, because I’m, because a BaaS company has disintermediate this. These companies like Solid, like Synapse, like Unit, I don’t think they actually can work. I think you need a direct relationship with the bank. My litmus test I’ve been using, like for the past three months or so is like, who’s the contract with? If the contract is with the bank, you have a direct relationship with the bank, if the contract is with someone else, you don’t.
Peter Renton 16:00
Right.
Chris Dean 16:00
That’s it.
Peter Renton 16:01
Right, yeah that makes sense. So, you know, as you’ve been here at Fintech Meetup over the last couple of days, I mean, what are the conversations that you’re having with banks and fintechs? Is it, I mean, you’ve said that you did a whole bunch of calls, you said, but I’m just thinking about the people that have sort of peripherally followed the news, and you bump into them, what are those conversations like?
Chris Dean 16:20
It is funny. Universally, the banks are like, thank goodness, this is the right thing.
Peter Renton 16:26
Okay.
Chris Dean 16:27
Let’s do that. Because they know the regulatory environment, right? And they can deal with that. And they, like the fintechs, half of them are like, Genius move, great idea, and half of them like, What does that mean? What’s the difference? How are you different? And I’m like, here’s the difference. We’re not a bank. But I will tell you something, the best fintechs work with the best banks directly. Like you don’t see the very largest, fintech saying, I’m going to go through an intermediary. People don’t do that, right. The biggest one was Mercury, and they left. Right, of course. And so I say like, Do you want to do a deal directly with a bank? Like the answer should be yes. I have many banks I can introduce you to, right.
Peter Renton 17:11
Right. So when you’re working with a bank, are you involved now in the sales process? Like they’ve identified a fintech they want to do business with, how involved are you in the process before they sign a contract?
Chris Dean 17:26
Great question. We get a lot of organic leads just coming into us, to Treasury Prime. We take those leads, we do an initial evaluation intake call just to get the simplest diligence done. And then we send those to the banks and say, who wants to talk to them? For the ones that do, we introduce the fintech to the bank. We provide a support role then, it’s often a three way call. But we’re in a support role to the bank here. How can we help the bank determine if this is a good client? If the client is asking questions of a technical nature, we have staff to do that. We help all the way up until the price negotiations, which is entirely the bank. And then when a contract is signed, the bank says, Please help us implement them. And there’s a process we have to do that. Where we will take the fintech and help them turn on. A lot of that work is technical work, and so we’re better at that than the banks are. Every fintech has their own risk and compliance model in our world, and the banks set that up as part of that process.
Peter Renton 18:28
Right. Okay. So, you know, I’ve seen some things in the press about, you know, there’s lots of innovation happening in fintech. We see there’s lots of companies doing startups, doing interesting things that will continue till the end of time, right. But it seems like now with the scrutiny of regulators, I think, like some of the real, the startups that are just getting going, how are they going to develop a bank relationship? Because it seems like banks want established, more established fintechs. Are you worried that we’re going to stifle innovation now with the fact that you know, a total startup who’s still really doing a proof of concept, are they going to be able to work with banks?
Chris Dean 19:10
It’s a much harder problem, for sure. I think about it like, I’m stealing this idea from someone else, I think of it like, if I want to launch a new rocket into space, there’s certain capital requirements I need. I gotta build the rocket, I gotta do all this stuff. It’s expensive, right? I need certain, I need to raise certain capital to do that. I can’t, the situation, is pretty much gone, where I can say, I have $200,000 in the bank, and I have you know two folks in a back bedroom, we’re building our startup together, and that’ll be enough for a bank. Probably not. You need money. You need millions of dollars in capital before you can move forward. And that just moves the problem around, it doesn’t stop it. But it certainly will make it so that there’s less crazy ideas, which, you know, that’s good and bad.
Peter Renton 20:04
Right, right, right. Yeah, that makes sense. Makes sense. So, want to talk about, I think you mentioned in your blog posts, when you were making this announcement, you talked about compliance automation tools. Now, can you sort of explain what you’re actually doing there when it comes to automation?
Chris Dean 20:24
Sure. I mean, there’s just the operational piece of it, which is where most of it lies. Reconciliation is a big deal. It’s hard. You know, it’s, you, basically always have to work on it. But what we do is we have direct interfaces to all of the systems at a bank. Like I was saying before, we do direct real time integration to the cores. We’re unique in the industry in doing that. And because we do that, it means that we can automate activities that are harder to automate, right? Like, we have clients who have deposit accounts with us, and then a separate deal with the bank to do lending. But the way they do lending is using our tools to automate that process. We don’t actually do any of the lending, because we’re not a lender. But we have tools that they can use internally to move money around, to keep their books straight. And it’s all due to the fact that we have the direct integrations with all the bank systems.
Peter Renton 21:17
So when you say direct integrations, you mean like the, with the core providers? The three big ones, you’re directly?
Chris Dean 21:24
Yeah, I mean, it’s more than that. But for sure, yeah, like the FISs, the Fiservs, the Jack Henrys of the world, yeah, we do direct integrations for them. So you know, we can open a bank account on the core, if we, you know, want, that’s a possible thing. That’s a thing that you can do, and we do that in real time. The ones that come up a lot, are when you need to move money, or when you need to lock something down. Like when you need to lock an account, it has to be right then, it can’t be at the end of the day, it has to be right then. And when you want to move money around, like you’re going to wire it out or something, want to put it in maybe a settlement account, that has to happen in real time. We do all those integrations, we also do integration of all the payment gateways, the card systems, the wire, and ACH, you’ve got.
Chris Dean 22:04
I never see any of them.
Peter Renton 22:04
What about the newer companies that are trying to displace those big three, are you working with, without naming names?
Peter Renton 22:08
You never see any of them? Really?
Chris Dean 22:13
No. I mean, I talk to them at these conferences, and they have interesting tech. But most banks are like, I don’t want to spend a lot of money recoring because at the end, I’ll just have a better core, and my business is unchanged, right? It’s like it’s, you could do it, you have to have a good reason. So I have one bank who recored, but they recored from FIS, sorry, from Fiserv to Jack Henry. And that was because they had good reasons, they got, good for them. But what most people do, they look at the problem and they actually come to us and say, I don’t want to change my core provider, because that’s a lot of work. But you do all these integrations, can we do a partnership with you? So that we can use a different online banking system or a different account opening system and that, we have those partners and they go through us, and the bank’s happy with that. So that’s how they do it, basically, where we could be a wrapper around these, sometimes antiquated core systems.
Peter Renton 23:11
Right, right. So obviously, we’ve been talking, you know, really, this is around embedded finance. And so I’m curious, you see, obviously, non bank, non fintech companies that are wanting to get, wanting to offer financial services. And then there’s the technology now that is able to help them kind of do that. You say you have banks working with fintechs. What about banks working with brands that are not fintechs?
Chris Dean 23:39
Yeah, there’s a nomenclature thing here, it’s tricky, right. For me, a tech firm that does any sort of finance is a fintech. Working with brands is part of that. There’s certainly different problems like Treasury Prime powers neobanks. They’re very straightforward, classic thing. We also, we also power investment platforms, right? We also power embedded banking systems, right, where it’s like, I have an existing business, and I want to add some payments or some accounts to that, we do that too. We call all those fintechs. It is interesting to think about brands doing this. And they’re doing it right now. They just call it something different.
Peter Renton 24:17
Right, right, okay. Fair enough. So as we sort of look to the future now, and obviously, you’ve made this big change, really, in the last couple of weeks. And, you know, looking out, I am curious about, I mean, it sounds like you’re very bullish on the on the bank, fintech partnership space, in general, maybe you can, give us your vision for that, and keeping in mind, I’d love to include in your answer, like the attention that regulators are providing to this sort of partnership these days. How do you see this playing out in the medium to long term?
Chris Dean 24:51
Yeah, I think the long-term forces are inevitable and there’s nothing you can do to stop them, and the long-term forces are that tech firms particularly have great relationships with specific populations, they might have a good with the investment community of a certain kind, they might, that are hard for banks to reach directly. So in my opinion, it is inevitable that the tech firms do a lot of last mile banking, it’s inevitable. However, that doesn’t mean that any crazy idea works out. So what we see here is that the fintechs that we work with, and the banks that we work with, really want to make sure that they stay on the good side of the law.
Peter Renton 25:31
Of course.
Chris Dean 25:31
And that the thing that triggers all the banks, and all the regulators is when you have a problem where it’s not safe and sound, you need a safe and sound banking system to work. And that’s what the regulators care about, they don’t want another shadow banking system created like there was in 2008 ish, right? What they want to do is make sure that the bank is a Chartered Institution, and the bank handles compliance. That’s how I see this playing out. There’s two roles, there’s the banks handling the compliance, there’s the tech firms, the brands, the fintechs, are doing that last mile to the end user, and the regulator is overseeing that operation, making sure that is all safe for the consumer or the commercial entity at the end there.
Peter Renton 26:12
Okay, so then, last question, as you look sort of to the future, how do you define success? Now, if you’re, you know, we’re coming back here in a year’s time, what will you think will have been a success for Treasury Prime?
Chris Dean 26:26
Treasury Prime’s long-term goal, this is gonna sound crazy Silicon Valley stuff, but it’s true. Our long term goal is to improve the US banking system. We think that, what I described about tech firms is inevitable, it will be better that is powered in a safe way, and a standard way, and I don’t think the banks are going to do it themselves. So I think it’s gonna have to be someone like us. So for me success always comes from, are there lots of people using the Treasury Prime APIs? And there are lots of banks who are participating in that API usage. If there’s a lot of banks and a lot of fintech activity, that’s the success. So as long as we continue to keep growing as I expect we are, that’s a success to me. A failure will be if all our banks go out of business, right?
Peter Renton 27:16
That would be bad.
Chris Dean 27:17
That would be bad. That will not happen. Our banks are too well run. But the problems that are seen other places, I don’t see at my banks, they’re very careful.
Peter Renton 27:26
Right, right, okay. Well, I applaud you for for making an aggressive move here. I understand the thinking behind it. And I appreciate you sharing it with the audience, so.
Chris Dean 27:37
Thank you very much. I am very bullish on the whole, on the whole industry. I think it’s going to be slow the next year or so. But it’s not going to stop. It’s gonna be slower, as people try to figure out how to handle the problem correctly. And we’re in the middle of that and I love it.
Peter Renton 27:54
Okay. Well, thanks for coming on the show, Chris, I appreciate it.
Chris Dean 27:56
Thank you so much.
Peter Renton 27:58 Well, I hope you enjoyed the show. Thank you so much for listening. Please go ahead and give the show a review on the podcast platform of your choice and go tell your friends and colleagues about it. Anyway, on that note, I will sign off. I very much appreciate you listening, and I’ll catch you next time. Bye
