Every financial institution on the planet needs to have a digital identity solution. Consumers want to open accounts online or on their phone and they want it to be a quick and efficient process. At the same time, banks want the process to be secure with as little fraud as possible. These two approaches are often at odds with one another.
The next guest on the Fintech One-on-One podcast is Mike Tuchen, the CEO of Onfido. They have dedicated themselves to solving this conundrum and in doing so have become a world leader in helping financial institutions verify the identity of their customers.
In this podcast you will learn:
- What attracted Mike to the opportunity with Onfido.
- How he describes Onfido today.
- Where they have offices and the number of employees at the company.
- Some of the big names using their technology today.
- How their tech works during the account opening process.
- The expectations of consumers when it comes to verifying their identity.
- Where the most drop-off is during the onboarding process.
- Their approach to data storage and privacy.
- How dropoff varies by age group.
- How to approach the onboarding process to reduce dropoff.
- The keys to getting digital identity right.
- How they are working with governments thinking through digital identity.
- How they think about risk.
- How effective AI models are at detecting fraud compared to humans plus machines.
- What portable identity is and how Onfido is enabling this.
- How they think about DeFi and identity in the crypto world.
- A sneak peek of Mike’s keynote session at Fintech Nexus USA.
- A teaser of their big announcement on May 25.
- Their vision for how digital identity will play out in the future.
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Download a PDF of the Transcription or Read it Below
Welcome to the Fintech One-on-One Podcast, Episode No. 365. This is your host, Peter Renton, Chairman and Co-Founder of LendIt Fintech.
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Before we get started, I want to talk about the 10th Annual LendIt Fintech USA event. We are so excited to be back in the financial capital of the world, New York City, in-person, on May 25th and 26th. It feels like fintech is on fire right now with so much change happening and we’ll be distilling all that for you at New York’s biggest fintech event of the year. We have our best line-up of keynote speakers ever with leaders from many of the most successful fintechs and incumbent banks. This is shaping up to be our biggest event ever as sponsorship support is off the charts. You know, you need to be there so find out more and register at lendit.com
Peter Renton: Today on the show, I’m delighted to welcome Mike Tuchen, he is the CEO of Onfido. Now, Onfido is a really interesting company, they are really one of the world leaders when it comes to identity verification and digital identity. We’ve had their former CEO Husayn Kassai on the show before as well, but I wanted to get Mike back on because they are making a big announcement shortly, they’re going to be on the Keynote Stage at LendIt Fintech USA happening in New York on May 25th and 26th where Mike will be talking on the Keynote Stage with senior executives from Mastercard and HSBC.
Anyway on this show, we really go through the whole kind of landscape that Onfido operates in and how businesses are using their technology, what that technology is doing, what are their consumer expectations when it comes to the account opening process and the rigmarole that one must go through to verify their identity, we talk about how they’re using AI and how they think about risk. Mike also give us his vision on the future of digital identity. It was a fascinating episode, hope you enjoy the show.
Welcome to the podcast, Mike!
Mike Tuchen: Thanks for having me.
Peter: My pleasure. So, let’s get started by giving the listeners a little bit of background about yourself. You’ve done quite a few things in your career, you’re not exactly a typical fintech CEO background so give us some of the highlights.
Mike: I started out as a super techie engineer (Peter laughs) and my first job out of engineering school was actually designing computer chips. Then I got my lobotomy, went to business school, had a number of business-related experiences and I had the chance to be a CEO three times. So, Onfido is now my third opportunity and I’m going to make sure it’s the best one.
Peter: Okay. So, what was it that attracted you to the opportunity at Onfido?
Mike: I was looking for an opportunity to work out a big problem that’s not well solved, a company that had incredible traction and had an opportunity to win in that big context and Onfido really had all of that, right. So, solving the digital identity problem was an enormous problem, not well solved today I would argue across the board and Onfido…we’re solving a part of it very well today and our business grew over 90% last year and over US$100 Million revenue. So, interesting scale, very high growth in the middle of a very, very exciting and complex and that has changed immensely.
Peter: Right, for sure, yeah. You know, I had your predecessor, Husayn Kassai, on the show, it was like three years ago thereabouts and obviously you’ve been in the job what, it was 2020 I think, it was late 2020 you got on the job, right?
Mike: That’s right. So, about 18 months now.
Peter: Yeah. So then, I’d love to sort of get your sense, you’ve got 18 months on the job, maybe we start off with saying, how you do you describe Onfido’s business today and then we can talk about some of the things you’ve been working on.
Mike: So, we’re all about helping companies simplify their digital identity worldwide. One of the core problems that almost every customer needs to solve is as their businesses move from physical to digital, connecting together who we are as individuals in real-life with your digital ID. I’m not doglover101 at gmail.com and, you know, verifying that allows me to take advantage of all those things online to create a bank account or an Uber drop if I want to do that, rent out an Airbnb. All of those different things need to actually have identity verification so we solve that problem, we do that with AI and machine learning as an approach in 195 countries in the ten years since Husayn, Eamon and Ruhul created the company, we’ve done that 175 million times in 195 countries.
Peter: Wow, wow, it’s amazing. I believe you’re based in the Bay Area, right?
Mike: That’s right.
Peter: This company is officially still based in London, is that true?
Mike: That’s right. The company is in London…and actually, honestly bounce back and forth between the Bay Area where I am right now and Florida, I spend probably a little bit more time in Florida because it’s a lot closer, time zone-wise, to the UK and the rest of Europe where we have a big presence than California so having those three hours in the morning super precious, shorter flights back and forth so we’re actually a little bit more weighted to Florida right now, but, yeah.
Peter: I mean, you talked about transactions in 195 countries, what is your actual footprint now at Onfido, where are their offices?
Mike: We’ve got over 650 people right now in the company, headquarters London, big office in Paris, in Lisbon, Portugal, people spread out through much of Western Europe and then in terms of the US, offices in New York, in Albuquerque, in San Francisco and offices in India and Singapore. So, we have a pretty broad global footprint, but with a ……you know, because of our initial founding presence, I’d say the US is still, just right now, got in front from a size perspective in Europe and so, you know, the US is still one of the very, very rapid growth rates for us even though it’s also our biggest business.
Peter: Right, right, that makes sense. So, can you share some of the names, the big names that are using Onfido’s technology today?
Mike: We have seven of the top ten UK banks, three of the top ten US banks, within that I’d point to Barclay’s awarded us their “Innovator of the Year” award to help them streamline their onboarding, Tesco Bank, 5 million customer bank which is one of the largest high street banks in the UK, TSB Bank is a neobank/challenger bank has also 5 million customers. And in terms of, you know, new digital banking companies NatWest, created Mettle which has a two-minute onboarding experience, Revolut, one of the biggest digital banks in the world, 14.5 million customers there, we’ve helped them quadruple the number of people they have onboarded. So, those are just a matter….we work with almost all of the crypto companies and exchanges as well, you know, I could go on forever, we have 850 customers today.
Peter: I’ve been opening a few crypto accounts this year and I often see Onfido’s technology as I go through that process so. And speaking of which, maybe can you describe exactly what you’re actually providing and how the technology works during that account opening process.
Mike: The core issue that a lot of customers need to solve is, as I mentioned, who are you and in order to get that, you know, strong verification of who you are it comes as a mix of a few different things. At it’s core is a government-issued ID and so we’re going to pull out your ID, pull out your cellphone, take a picture of the ID both sides potentially depending on what it is, take a picture of yourself and then we use AI to both confirm that ID, that you are indeed real-life human being and you’re the same one as in that ID. And then we can also set up, depending on the customer requirements, we can allow them to also do a whole bunch of data checks and so we can confirm, for example, a Social Security number.
We can confirm where you live, your address, we can do a database check in various different sources, like in the US there is a drivers’ license database so we can confirm if this driver’s license is actually, you know, a real valid driver’s license based on the drivers’ license database. So, those are all, you know, checks that can give additional levels of scrutiny based on what customers are looking for and those can vary in different countries around the world so that’s the core of the process and some of the variations the customer can have.
Peter: Right. And then what about the expectations of your customers’ customers, the people like myself who are opening up an account, what are their expectations now? I mean, is there still resistance for going and grabbing your driver’s license or are people pretty much accepting it now, what do you see for your customers?
Mike: The first question is, what are we comparing it to? If you compare it to the overall, the old paper world, we have to go and drive to a bank, it’s so much easier, right and that really gets down to what are the expectations. The expectations are it’s really fast, it’s simple, it’s streamlined, it’s digital first and mobile first, you can do it on your phone wherever and whenever you want it to happen. And so, those are kind of the core pieces and then it should be, you know, straightforward UI and streamlined experience and accurate with strong privacy controls.
You know, 60% of people have said that they have abandoned onboarding flaws when they’re too complex, too cumbersome or if you’re concerned about their data. Finotec did a study about different banks’ onboarding flaws found that some traditional banks are literally taking 120 clicks to set up a bank account right now and that was digital, give them credit for that, but relative to best-in-class, Revolut, one of our customers, they can do it in 24 clicks.
And so, imagine that, think about for a digital native these days, I can suspect that when you get to click number 50 or 75, you’re starting to think, you know, I think there’s a better way and the way that companies like Revolut do it, you use a digital native partner like ours that does a very streamlined workflow using AI and ML and really make that into a first rate, high confidence experience with customers and that’ll dramatically reduce the amount of steps and, you know, give customers more confidence and therefore an easier onboarding, right.
Peter: Right, right, because when I was doing it recently on a website of a crypto platform and then using your technology and then I went switch they said, go to your phone now and did it on my phone, you know, took a photo and did what was what was required and then went back and I continued on the website. It was completely seamless, I was really impressed by the technology that was sort of seamless way that goes from the desktop to the phone so people may abandon an online application, but it seems like, I mean, what are you seeing, are they more around…..I mean, are there points of friction that are generally considered those where people mostly drop off, what do you see during that process? Where is the drop-off, where is the friction?
Mike: You know, if you look at the onboarding flaws right now, when working well they actually tend to have very, very high onboarding rates, 90% is a very strong benchmark there, but where our customers can go sideways is, you know, think about the mechanics of you’re pulling an ID out of your wallet and taking a picture of it, well, the picture can be blurry, the lighting can be bad, there can be glare, all kinds of things, we screen for that, you know, on the device, actually it’s part of the SDK.
And so, if you have glare or blurry or the lighting’s poor, we’ll tell you right there and say, you know, keep trying and then as soon as we get a good one you don’t have to take the picture and move on. You know, those kind of setup issues that can really get in the way and if you can’t get a clean picture of either of the ID or the person then your ability to use ML or anything down the stream is going to go way down so all of that is really where we see the biggest amount of fall off.
Peter: Okay. So then, you know, I took this picture and sent it in to you guys, where does that data reside, do you delete it? What’s your approach to I guess privacy and storing the stuff?
Mike: We have a data deletion policy on our side where, you know, after a certain amount of time everything gets deleted and then we also allow our customers to set different deletion policies themselves. So, if they want to customize and have a …assure that we will not allow them to make it longer than our policy, but they can make it shorter if they want. And so, that allows us to make sure that we’re keeping only as much as our customers need to solve their problems and not, you know, creating a privacy risk.
Peter: Do you find that, you know, across age groups now, do you find like more drop-off the older the demographic, are there certain trends within the age group as far as how much they abandon the process.
Mike: We see it kind of the other way around. The younger generation, 18 to 24, tend to have the highest, they’re digital native, you know, they grew up expecting it to be just a fantastic experience so they tend to have the least amount of forgiveness for digital experiences. And this is the demographic where in the coming years they’re going to be the, you know, the major account holders, they’re going to be the people that are moving into their highest earning years and their, you know, loan origination years and stuff like that. So, it’s an absolute key cohort for banks to really watch and put their arms around so we think that it’s a real eye-opener for banks when you look at the demographics of who is most particular.
Peter: Interesting. So, they’re going to have a higher drop-off, I mean, obviously sometimes you don’t get to control the process completely, you’re just doing one piece of the onboarding, but I’m curious about, if someone’s listening to this and they want to deal with that age group, what do you recommend, how do they approach the onboarding process?
Mike: I’ll go back to what we talked about a minute ago. Number one, make sure the onboarding process, you really streamline the heck out of it, not just using someone like us but look at the entire flow. Is your onboarding process closer to 120 clicks or 24, right?
Peter: Right.
Mike: It goes down to 24 and look at every step along the way and say, do I have to do this, do I have to do this now and can I do it after the onboarding process, how can we do this in a progressive kind of way? You know, take a different approach, we do some amount of consulting for our customers as well and, you know, sometimes where we notice on our side like, hey, when we compare you to our best-in-class, you’re not where we’d expect you to be, can we help you and we’ll go in and with some of our user experience experts, you know, look at their flow and give them a number of suggestions so that’s something that we can do to help partner with our customers. We made some enormous, like multiple of differences when we have customers that are under performing their expectations and just go in and help them, you know, think through the whole flow and help.
Peter: Right, right. So, the digital identity piece that we’re talking about here, what are the keys to getting it right. I mean, obviously you have deep experience now, many, many years, you know, Onfido, I think it’s like ten years old now, is that….
Mike: That’s right. We’re having our tenth year birthday party in July.
Peter: Right, awesome. Ten years of experience, to get digital identity right for a fintech or a bank, are there certain sort of approaches that they can take, you know, is it really just what you said there? I mean, can you maybe expand on how banks and fintechs can get digital identity right, what are the keys?
Mike: We just spent a lot of time talking about the user experience during the onboarding process, but let’s talk about the level. The first question is, which countries are you planning on doing your onboarding here because each country…right now, the identity landscape varies dramatically by country. So the first question is, where? And now the second question is which documents do you want to support because you may choose that some documents are inherently more susceptible to fraud than others, right, there are some older versions of drivers’ licenses that literally are like folded pieces of paper with handwritten stuff on it, right, that not the most secure documents or at least social security data, for example, it’s really hard to verify that one’s actually real.
And so, first choose, you know, set-up the phone and then, you know, really think through what level of assurance you need and what steps you want to do to ensure that. You know, we’ve talked a lot about the document and selfie process, that’s kind of the core of what we do, but think about all the other signals you might want to look at as well and how did that vary by country and in different scenarios, like depending on the risk score, do you do more or do less.
We have some companies that we’ll take for lower risk customers and users and in lower risk scenarios, they will do some relatively simple checks, database-driven checks using different data signals and say well, see if the device makes sense, the network signals make sense, the database checks are panning up, just pass them through, that’s okay, that’s good enough. But if any of those don’t make sense or the higher risk scenario, we’ll go all the way through and do all of that in addition to the full document selfie check. And so, think about what your workflow is going to look like in each different scenario and then build that all the way out, that’ll allow you to have the minimal friction where you can and get that right balance of, right level of, you know, real verification where you need it.
Peter: Right. So, that just brings up a question in my mind, are you working with governments that have pretty weak systems in place, where fraud is pretty rampant. I mean, do you do any of that kind of thing or do you mainly just work with corporations?
Mike: So, we are actually working with several governments less on that because that’s more of a legacy problem……
Peter: Right.
Mike:…..and more on, one of the problems that every government is facing right now is as they transition to more and more digital and digital forms of ID, how does that condition take place, how should they think about regulation? You know, we stand at kind of the intersection of identity which is a very sovereign concept to every government, biometrics and privacy and that’s something that’s a very evolving landscape so, we’re, you know, we’re helping several different governments think through that landscape and how it should evolve. We’re one voice, but, as you pointed out, we have ten years of experience and we’ve done this 175 million times so it’s in a form that we can help them think through how this might evolve.
Peter: Right. So, let’s talk about risk for a second because obviously everyone’s got their own risk tolerance and there’s different people, someone’s trying to take a loan for $100,000 versus, you know, maybe send a $20 payment, there’s different kinds of risk factors in play there and obviously each institution is going to have their own tolerances there, but how do you evaluate from your perspective when you think someone is going to be high risk?
Mike: You know, things that set off alarm bells for us would be, here’s the obvious ones, if the phone is not a phone (laughs), it’s a virtual machine running on Amazon, all the other…that being a real user or something approaching zero, right. If it has different types of software on it that are very unusual in a consumer context that starts to make us wonder, if it’s coming from an area that’s, you know, very different from where the user is from and the document they’re bringing up, well, that’s not necessarily that strong a signal, but depending on where it’s coming from, if it’s coming from, you know, one of the sanction countries, for example, well that rings all the bells, but areas that are known for high levels of online fraud, you know, all of those things that are riskful for us and so those are all contextual things that we look at.
Then as we do a number of AI-driven checks on the documents themselves that will separate the real ones from fake ones, you look at all the ways that people will create fake documents, they can take a real document and paste-in a picture on top of it, oh, we can detect that, take a real document again and doctor individual characters, again, we can detect that, they can create additional fakes, a whole fake documents that’s created digitally, we can detect that. So, all of these different things set off alarm bells so any of those latter signals I just mentioned are ones that you’re doing that full document paste, as we get that, you know, we’ll find those immediately.
Or, another one, you know, we can detect if someone is wearing a mask, the new fraud vectors that are out there are either complete digital fakes where they fake the documents and they fake the person, or we can detect, are you actually a real person or are you a real person wearing a Mission Impossible-like, you know, silicone mask making it look like the person on the ID, we can detect that too. So, all of those different things will set off alarm bells for us and say no, this is fraud, you should reject this person.
Peter: With the AI models that you’ve got, I mean, how much better is it than a human? I hear that like humans aren’t actually very good at detecting this sort of stuff compared to what some of the latest models are. I mean, can you give us some sense of, like maybe how effective the AI models are.
Mike: There’s things that humans are good at and there’s humans that can be bad at and vice versa. The things that computers are really good at are things that operate that, when you blend all that stuff together, historically, human beings started out being better than machines and those lines right now are just starting to cross. And so, when you put in all the different things together we can now have, you know, a fully automated solution that’s getting either the same or even in some case better perform than a combination of an advantage…I mean, let’s start out, let me scale this a little bit.
A human being by themselves doing a sort of mechanical tech turk person of looking at documents and comparing them fully manually, performance is not very good. A human being combined with machine, where the machines do the best they can as compared to a human being that has been a state-of-the art in the last several years and now fully automated solutions like what we’re building are just now getting to that level of performance and we expect to continue on that trajectory over the next several quarters, it’s been going forward from there start exceed.
Peter: Right, right, okay. So, I want to talk about portable identity, something that I read about from you guys recently, can you explain what it is and how you’re bringing that to market?
Mike: So, the consummate portable identity is allowing customers to do a verification once and create a secure ID that they hold themselves and they can then use it portably in the sense that they can use it across a number of different companies. And so, we have one of our customers, SecureKey, based in Canada that’s doing exactly that. So, we help them onboard new customers and they are working with a consortium of banks and then that ID that gets created as part of that credential can now be used not just for that one bank who did the initial onboard, but can be used across the banking consortium and for other companies as well.
And so, the idea then is that is in control of the end-user, of the person who is doing that onboarding process and so we’re also working with Microsoft as your active directory verified with credentials and where they’re doing something similar. You know, we see this as an emerging trend so we think that over time more and more of the control of identity moves to the end-user where, you know, I, as an end-user, can figure out and can decide what I’m willing to share with any individual company that’s asking for a verification.
Peter: Right. I’ve seen a few companies doing things in the DeFi space and, you know, where people say you’re going to have your crypto wallet that’s going to store your ID and you can go around the decentralized world and have that be your identity that’s accepted in that way. Now, obviously this is still not production ready yet. Are you doing anything in the DeFi world or the crypto world on that?
Mike: Yes, we see the worlds of digital IDs moving in a couple of different directions, the Decentralized ID or DIDs as part of the DeFi movement is a piece of that. My current belief is that we’re moving to a world where there’s going to be a crazy number of wallets out there, right, everyone’s going to have a wallet and so I think that’s probably unsustainable. I think, ultimately, there’s probably going to be a smaller number of wallets that, you know, people use and re-use more and more, like Apple’s obviously created a wallet, Google’s created a wallet, Samsung’s created a wallet. Those will probably get some level of re-use across a number of apps versus every app having their own, but I think in the near term we’re seeing a thousand flowers bloom on that.
So, certainly our goal is to make sure that our customers can have the most streamlined verification experience and they can do it across whatever mix of ideas are available so, you know, if someone has a wallet that we recognize with a credential that that company is willing to accept, great, we can use that, very simple. If there’s an Apple wallet on the device that has a, you know, credential again that that company is willing to accept, we can accept that. And so, there’s really, you know, in this world where I think it’s going to be pretty Balkanized for a long time is help customers solve their problem which is am I able to onboard customers in a fast, seamless, secure way, you know, do that in the most streamlined way possible given what’s available on that first device.
Peter: Right, got it, got it, okay. So, switching gears, you’re going to be talking on the Keynote Stage at LendIt Fintech USA, as we’re recording this it’s only nine days away, but you’re going to be talking about creating an Amazon-like experience for finance. So, can you give us a bit of a sneak peek on what you’re referring to there?
Mike: Yeah. Think about what some of the best-in-class digital banks are offering right now, you sign someone up in, you know, a couple of minutes or less going forward, how streamlined can you make that experience. The challenge that banks have right now, as we’ll talk about, is the backend systems are massively complex, most banks have a number of different backend systems they’re trying to work with, at the same time, they have a very strict KYC and underwriting process and they might have dozens or even a hundred or more different vendors they’re trying to juggle as part of that flow.
So, the first question is, how simple and streamlined can you make that because given all that complexity, that massive complexity they need to deal with, how streamlined can they make that? Can they work with a company like us that has, not only inherently part of that flow really nicely streamlined, but also using orchestration where we can tie together all those disparate pieces and, you know, create a much more streamlined data flow. So, is it possible, yeah, it is possible, we have, you know, proof points of companies that have done it, but it’s certainly not easy and actually have active conversation as we hear from Ahron at HSBC talking about his experiences and the complexity they have and how streamlined can they make that.
Peter: Got it, okay. So then, you’re also making a big announcement on May 25th, can you give us a little bit of a hint or a teaser on what you’re going to be talking about?
Mike: You know, without talking about the entire announcement, but I will say you’ll hear us talking about more and more AI and more advanced AI capabilities, you’ll hear us talking about broadening our platform and making it more configurable and solving a, you know, much more complex problem. With all the advances coming in AI and biometrics we bring to the table, all the new analytics that we bring, it’s going to be exciting, let’s put it that way.
Peter: Okay, sounds good. So, finally then before we wrap, I’d love to sort of get your personal vision for….when you look at digital identity in the future and what’s coming down, I mean, what’s your vision for how digital identity is going to play out?
Mike: Let’s turn the clock back for a moment. You know, Peter, ten years ago when Husayn, Eamon and Ruhul got together their view was that we need to create an open world where the digital world was accessible for everyone and that’s still absolutely critical, right. Back then, there’s gatekeepers that we can all name, that everyone had to go through. If you were a thin file person, like Husayn came from Iran and they weren’t in the database so they couldn’t actually get a bank account, they couldn’t rent an apartment in their name, they had this, you know, sort of extensive project and they had to call me to get a room before they could actually be a first class part of the financial ecosystem.
So, their view was that where there’s a fundamental fairness problem of people that immigrate should be able to participate from day one, people of different ethnicities, but nowadays moving fast forward a bit, we have bias when they meet in person, but now, we also have algorithmic bias that they’re facing in an open world where everyone can get access to so that was kind of a core founding principle that we still care deeply about. Now, what’s going on is working on something more complex, we’re seeing more and more regulation in every country and those regulations aren’t converging, they’re actually moving apart.
We’re seeing as the world’s moving online, fraud is moving online, the fraud problem getting more complex and customers need to take more comprehensive steps. We’re seeing the rise of digital IDs, we’re talking about the rise of digital currencies and are all subject to a lot of that stuff I just described and so the customer landscape is getting a ton more complex. At the same time, customer expectations are for things to get easier and easier and so that’s really our goal and our mission as a company is to simplify digital ID to help our customers solve for this increasingly complex landscape and make it simple and easy and do that for them globally in a digital first, digital native way powered by AI that’s available around the world.
Peter: Okay. We’ll have to leave it there, Mike, it’s important work you’re doing and it’s one that’s going to be around, I mean, this is the sort of thing that, you know, we’re going to need in a hundred years time just as much as we need today as things evolve. Anyway, thanks again for coming on the show.
Mike: Awesome, thanks for having me.
Peter: You know, as I say, Onfido is doing something that’s very important. Every bank, every financial institution on the planet must have a digital identity solution now because if you want to open up an account online or on the phone which, let’s face it if you’re not doing that, you are way behind as it is. But every financial institution wants to do this pretty much now and need to do it quickly and efficiently while at the same time doing it securely and those three things are not easy to combine, that’s what Onfido provides. As I said, I’ve been through the process multiple times myself just in recent months and it’s really a pretty slick system they have.
Anyway on that note, I will sign off. I very much appreciate you listening and I’ll catch you next time. Bye.
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